Curse

phoenixtech · Apr 23, 2007, 05:42 AM // 05:42

It has become pretty obvious to me that trying to balance the hundreds of skills for BOTH PVE and PVP is way too much for anyone to handle. Whenever there's PVP skill adjustments, the PVE crowd usually cries nerf since the game is currently setup with monsters, PVE, and PVP all using the same skills.

I have a simple suggestion that might make this game much easier to balance for BOTH PVE and PVP, and might even make it really fun for all involved. Basically, you expand the item modifier system that is currently used. Right now we have a prefix, suffix and a base item modifier. KEEP IN MIND THAT THESE MODIFICATIONS WILL ONLY WORK IN PVE.

For example: (yes I know it's very Diablo-like)
Flaming Phoenix Blade of Quickness
Prefix PVE effect (Makes regular attacks set enemies on fire).
Suffix PVE effect (Increase attack speed by X%).

or
Hammer of Devastation (Unique item)
Every regular attack of this hammer have a 10% chance of performing the Backbreaker skill.

or for casters:
Fireball wand of energy
Prefix PVE effect (Makes regular wand attacks cast fireball according to current player fire atribute)
Suffix PVE effect (Makes all spells cost 2 less energy)

Basically, you throw in these "over-powered" modifiers like IAS, Faster cast rate, Increased run speed, lower minion degeneration rate, higher spell damage, increase X attribute by 2,3 etc...that ONLY WORK IN PVE. I know this is possible since the monsters in hardmode and bosses already have some of these mods inherently.

I have no idea how much more bandwidth using a diablo-like randomizer would might take up, so ANET might consider having only a few "unique" items that only work in PVE. With this small change to weapons, shields, armor, etc... ANET can have more freedom balancing PVP skills without majorly affecting the PVE crowd since they can just adjust the item modifiers to affect PVE only.

This shouldn't be too hard to implement since it's using existing skills instead of creating new "PVE only skills", all you are doing is changing a skill's cast rate, energy cost, damage, etc... IF you are equiped with an item/armor/charms in inventory. Hell even make an arena where you can USE these items, but only disable them for GvG, Halls, TA etc... it wouldn't even be hard to put some lore into it by saying that these are banished modifications that have no place in the Halls or no honor in GvG etc...

savage vapor 33 · Apr 23, 2007, 08:51 AM // 08:51

No offense, but I think the skill balance is fine. Yeah there might be some skills, but overall the meta skills seem pretty well balanced.

Angel Netherborn · Apr 23, 2007, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Notice that the hue and cry and all the whinings die down after a while. And there are still alot of people playing the game.

phoenixtech · Apr 24, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Notice how long it took for them to properly balance a game after new skills are introduced. What 3-4 months? How many people have they lost to WOW during that time? These improvements here not only make it easier to balance the game in the future it also makes PVE more interesting. They are ALREADY considering adding PVE only skills in the expansion pack ANYWAYS, so why not make these changes now?

OhCrapLions · Apr 24, 2007, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Notice how long it took for them to properly balance a game after new skills are introduced. What 3-4 months? How many people have they lost to WOW during that time? These improvements here not only make it easier to balance the game in the future it also makes PVE more interesting. They are ALREADY considering adding PVE only skills in the expansion pack ANYWAYS, so why not make these changes now?

Because you seem to be the only one with a problem about the balancing.

GW is not, and was never meant to be a WoW killer. In fact, I'm quite certain that your just crying because you get owned all the time. As every time blizzard makes a change the who damn food chain in WoW spirals out into chaos and upset users on how their 1337ness isnt so 1337 anymore. Not to mention blizzard hardly ever does jack shit to fix problems other than account theft.

Oh and your idea is horrible and only serves what ANET is trying to nerf.

And I thought I had stupid ideas.

phoenixtech · Apr 24, 2007, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Er, first, you don't know a DAMN thing about me, so let's not even go there. Second, get some reading comprehension skills before you reply to posts, it'd make you look less retarded.

Oh btw, read about the part where ANET is already considering PVE only skills before you open your mouth. I'm just trying to point them to a more cost effective solution, then again, this sort of thing is most likely beyond someone like you to understand.

Now, even though you started the flaming, I'll try to be more civil and explain this in a way you can understand, even though it's most likely going to be a waste of my time explaining this to someone like you who already made up their mind and just wants to start a flame war with people you don't know anything about.

YES, there is a problem with game balance, especially with the release of every expansion they've had. ANET tends to release over-powered WTF PWN skills either intentionally in order to sell more copies or unintentionally just due to the fact that it is overwhelming to balance so many skills. Typically they slowly try to rebalance. It might be decent RIGHT NOW after SEVERAL MONTHS of balance patches, but it certainly wasn't when NF was initially released. If you do not agree with that point and think the game was properly balanced when NF was initially released then you are just wasting my time and not even worth talking to.

You also need to read some of gaile's comments regarding some classes like mesmers having a "PVE" issue. Bottom line is, splitting PVE and PVP skill balance, no matter how they go about it is probably the best and easiest way to make this game last, and YES, I am a big fan of the diablo series, if you feel like flaming people you don't even know's posts just because you hate blizzard/WOW then go ahead. Hell ANET's own staff is mostly made up of former Battle.net people. This game can only improve by having anything CLOSE to diablo's replay value at the PVE side while retaining the great PVP it already has. Of course people like you prob will never understand any of this so, but other people reading this might.

Also, you are obviously too young/immature to understand this, but everything in this world revolves around $$$. If ANET COULD make GW into a WOW killer they would GLADLY do it, their shareholders (NC SOFT) would wet their pants if GW made the kind of $$$$ that WOW makes. What does making GW better have anything to do with $$$ you ask? Improving the fanbase now will GUARANTEE/hype up good sales of GW2 which = $$$$$$.

Chris616263 · Apr 24, 2007, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by savage vapor 33

No offense, but I think the skill balance is fine. Yeah there might be some skills, but overall the meta skills seem pretty well balanced.

I think not. Dervishes are still horribly overpowered while Mesmers constantly get the axe. ANet should just be honest and rename "skill balance changes" to "Mesmer nerfs".

Where's our big PvE buff, huh? Well? I don't see it anywhere.

Yawgmoth · Apr 24, 2007, 06:33 AM // 06:33

GW:EN is a perfect moment for adding some new cool items. And imho GW's pve really needs some. When stuff is balanced for PvP it becomes quite boring for PvEr's, just look - all items are basically the same, just the skins differ.
It's not about having Uber-Godly itamz, because even for pve use, most GW players would not want that. It's about diversity.

We already have PvE only skills and items. There are also certain mods that work only in PvE, but they're only +%dmg or +armor against monstertype.
Unusual item modifiers exist or existed in the game (like %increased or decreased attack speed, -% chance of critical hit, -% chance to miss or weapons with more than one inherent mod) so the engine can already handle such things.

So there's no reason not to add some interesting twists on items in the coming expansion but making them restricted to PvE only use would probably be a must. The most probable way would be adding a "This item can't be used in PvP" line.

Wanding with fireballs is obviously way too much though

dark_prince2023 · Apr 24, 2007, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

It has become pretty obvious to me that trying to balance the hundreds of skills for BOTH PVE and PVP is way too much for anyone to handle. Whenever there's PVP skill adjustments, the PVE crowd usually cries nerf since the game is currently setup with monsters, PVE, and PVP all using the same skills.

I have a simple suggestion that might make this game much easier to balance for BOTH PVE and PVP, and might even make it really fun for all involved. Basically, you expand the item modifier system that is currently used. Right now we have a prefix, suffix and a base item modifier. KEEP IN MIND THAT THESE MODIFICATIONS WILL ONLY WORK IN PVE.

For example: (yes I know it's very Diablo-like)
Flaming Phoenix Blade of Quickness
Prefix PVE effect (Makes regular attacks set enemies on fire).
Suffix PVE effect (Increase attack speed by X%).

or
Hammer of Devastation (Unique item)
Every regular attack of this hammer have a 10% chance of performing the Backbreaker skill.

or for casters:
Fireball wand of energy
Prefix PVE effect (Makes regular wand attacks cast fireball according to current player fire atribute)
Suffix PVE effect (Makes all spells cost 2 less energy)

Basically, you throw in these "over-powered" modifiers like IAS, Faster cast rate, Increased run speed, lower minion degeneration rate, higher spell damage, increase X attribute by 2,3 etc...that ONLY WORK IN PVE. I know this is possible since the monsters in hardmode and bosses already have some of these mods inherently.

I have no idea how much more bandwidth using a diablo-like randomizer would might take up, so ANET might consider having only a few "unique" items that only work in PVE. With this small change to weapons, shields, armor, etc... ANET can have more freedom balancing PVP skills without majorly affecting the PVE crowd since they can just adjust the item modifiers to affect PVE only.

This shouldn't be too hard to implement since it's using existing skills instead of creating new "PVE only skills", all you are doing is changing a skill's cast rate, energy cost, damage, etc... IF you are equiped with an item/armor/charms in inventory. Hell even make an arena where you can USE these items, but only disable them for GvG, Halls, TA etc... it wouldn't even be hard to put some lore into it by saying that these are banished modifications that have no place in the Halls or no honor in GvG etc...

I like it but people will still complain about some aspects and there will probubly still be pve v.s. pvp but that will never change heck look at my lil guy to the left.

all in all pretty good idea

phoenixtech · Apr 24, 2007, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

GW:EN is a perfect moment for adding some new cool items. And imho GW's pve really needs some. When stuff is balanced for PvP it becomes quite boring for PvEr's, just look - all items are basically the same, just the skins differ.
It's not about having Uber-Godly itamz, because even for pve use, most GW players would not want that. It's about diversity.

We already have PvE only skills and items. There are also certain mods that work only in PvE, but they're only +%dmg or +armor against monstertype.
Unusual item modifiers exist or existed in the game (like %increased or decreased attack speed, -% chance of critical hit, -% chance to miss or weapons with more than one inherent mod) so the engine can already handle such things.

So there's no reason not to add some interesting twists on items in the coming expansion but making them restricted to PvE only use would probably be a must. The most probable way would be adding a "This item can't be used in PvP" line.

Yes, finally someone who understands what I mean.

and YES, the whole point is to introduce new and fancy/fun item mods for PVE and that works for *****PVE ONLY***** while making it easier to balance PVP without upsetting the PVE crowd, it kind of kills two birds with one stone. ANET can now feel free to modify skill balances for PVP as they wish and the PVE crowd will still be happy.

For example, say an item like this existed:

Wand of Minion mastery (special mod, minions created have only -5 pips maximum degen instead of the normal -20 or so they get). THIS EFFECT ONLY WORKS IN PVE.

ANET can now freely balance the soul reaping attribute line for PVP without majorly affecting the PVE crowd too much. YES I know plenty of people will say the soul reaping nerf doesn't really affect their minion master etc, that is NOT THE POINT. The point is that it takes LONGER for Izzy to sit there, analze all probably outcomes of affecting soul reaping on PVE, PVP and possibly monster skills and roll out a patch. This is what I mean by saying splitting PVP and PVE skill balance. It makes Izzy's job easier and more flexible in a cost effective manner and would possibly result in less time required to roll out future balance patches).

All of this would NOT be hard to do, they ALREADY have PVE only skills (sunspear rez signet, lightbringer's gaze, etc...), PVE only items like candycanes, etc... they ALREADY have the ability to modify IAS, cut castrate to 1/2, etc since monsters in hardmode already have those innate enhancements.

For the other people that don't understand this, you might want to read the CAPITALIZED parts before you respond, it's capitalized for a reason.

skillsbas8 · Apr 27, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Lol
PvE criticism ftl
For those who can't tell, he's speaking from a PvP standpoint- where balance actually matters; and the meta is broken.

Lord Mendes · Apr 27, 2007, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhCrapLions

Because you seem to be the only one with a problem about the balancing.

hahahaha!!!!!
Good one.

Antheus · Apr 27, 2007, 01:28 PM // 13:28

The only thing that adding overpowered PvE skills would achieve, is a bunch of loot/mob nerfs all across the board.

Some builds are already on verge of invinci-builds for hard mode. It takes very little to push them beyond that.

Now add new skills which disregard the balance, and you'll see another set of modifications like Protective Bond.

For regular players, it doesn't matter. But for bots and hard-cores, such imbalances are what they live for. Add one, and you'll see bot overpopulation in matter of days.

Already, hard-mode is farmable much easier than regular maps ever were. Forget troll cave. Go for hard mode, as long as there's no enchant removal, you'll be making money by truckloads, all bottable and boring as hell.

Why?

Imbalanced monster skills. 50% attack bonus makes some balanced skills which were previously imbalanced suddenly the best option ever. Don't think that balance is about 500%. True balance problems start at 5% difference.

The more such skills that get added, the more broken the PvE will be. And not just marginally, but completely broken. And then, nerfs will start coming up all across the board.

OhCrapLions · Apr 27, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Er, first, you don't know a DAMN thing about me, so let's not even go there. Second, get some reading comprehension skills before you reply to posts, it'd make you look less retarded.

Oh btw, read about the part where ANET is already considering PVE only skills before you open your mouth. I'm just trying to point them to a more cost effective solution, then again, this sort of thing is most likely beyond someone like you to understand.

Now, even though you started the flaming, I'll try to be more civil and explain this in a way you can understand, even though it's most likely going to be a waste of my time explaining this to someone like you who already made up their mind and just wants to start a flame war with people you don't know anything about.

YES, there is a problem with game balance, especially with the release of every expansion they've had. ANET tends to release over-powered WTF PWN skills either intentionally in order to sell more copies or unintentionally just due to the fact that it is overwhelming to balance so many skills. Typically they slowly try to rebalance. It might be decent RIGHT NOW after SEVERAL MONTHS of balance patches, but it certainly wasn't when NF was initially released. If you do not agree with that point and think the game was properly balanced when NF was initially released then you are just wasting my time and not even worth talking to.

You also need to read some of gaile's comments regarding some classes like mesmers having a "PVE" issue. Bottom line is, splitting PVE and PVP skill balance, no matter how they go about it is probably the best and easiest way to make this game last, and YES, I am a big fan of the diablo series, if you feel like flaming people you don't even know's posts just because you hate blizzard/WOW then go ahead. Hell ANET's own staff is mostly made up of former Battle.net people. This game can only improve by having anything CLOSE to diablo's replay value at the PVE side while retaining the great PVP it already has. Of course people like you prob will never understand any of this so, but other people reading this might.

Also, you are obviously too young/immature to understand this, but everything in this world revolves around $$$. If ANET COULD make GW into a WOW killer they would GLADLY do it, their shareholders (NC SOFT) would wet their pants if GW made the kind of $$$$ that WOW makes. What does making GW better have anything to do with $$$ you ask? Improving the fanbase now will GUARANTEE/hype up good sales of GW2 which = $$$$$$.

lulz hypocrisy, and I was not flaming, I said your IDEA was stupid. You on the other hand...

I was previously a level 60 character, I KNOW what WoW is like. Their PvE is better in most aspects. Their PvP is an EPIC FAILURE. Why? Because the game was catered so that the majority of the skills will be useful in mainly PvE and various role playing aspects (such as ganking). With specific skill combos, is possible for even the weakest and poorly equipped player to literally TWO SHOT almost ANYBODY. And no the fun part is, every class can do it at some point in time. The "balancing" just rearranges the food chain. So what does this have to do with PvP? The same thing will happen. Various skills will be over-powered WTF PWN skills in same fashion PvE skills will be over-powered WTF PWN skills.

Maybe if you read the articles (like the one addressing this very topic) then you would know that they ARE NOT FOCUSING on the current skills. Their main focus are the new GWEN skills. After they are done, they will get back to work on the older ones.

Splitting the balance teams will be a bad idea, not only will it slow production of the patches but it would cost more money to fund two separate groups who would probably ultimately go slower due to the lack of direct communication between skill ideas and usage. Also, the vast majority of skills (mainly the older skills) are universally useful in both PvE and PVP.

And please, dont talk to me like I'm a total twat just because I dont like your idea. You posted it on a criticism based user forum and I gave you my thoughts.

phoenixtech · Apr 28, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhCrapLions

Splitting the balance teams will be a bad idea, not only will it slow production of the patches but it would cost more money to fund two separate groups who would probably ultimately go slower due to the lack of direct communication between skill ideas and usage. Also, the vast majority of skills (mainly the older skills) are universally useful in both PvE and PVP.

And please, dont talk to me like I'm a total twat just because I dont like your idea. You posted it on a criticism based user forum and I gave you my thoughts.

Here are the senarios:
1) Current system, changing 1 skill or attribute affects BOTH PVE and PVP. For Izzy to change soul reaping, he has to spend alot of time not ONLY on the PVP aspect of the game, but the PVE side of things. Limiting energy gain at 5 seconds have ALOT of PVEers up in arms, just look around and see. From a PVP perspective, soul reaping needed change a LONG time ago, from a PVE perspective it was no big deal really.

2) New system, imagine an item like this already exists:
Wand of Minion mastery (special mod, minions created have only -5 pips maximum degen instead of the normal -20 or so they get). THIS EFFECT ONLY WORKS IN PVE.

Izzy and EASILY balance soul reaping and the PVE crowd will STILL be happy. Not ONLY that, items like this will make PVE ALOT more interesting, by giving players more variety of ways to kill monsters and increase the replay value of PVE. Anyone who's played Diablo will know what I'm talking about. Hell these items don't even have to be rare, they can common so the casual gamers won't cry about having to grind for them.

Which would make Izzy's job easier? what if GW:EN comes out and adds another 200 skills, which is going to make Izzy's job easier? The current system or the new system? Oh please have some PVP experience before you reply to this question. I can tell you that trying to balance the current skill set for PVP is already a difficult task, trying to balance it while having to consider its effect on PVE is pretty much impossible. Splitting the balance now may seem like it takes alot of effect (it doesn't really, all of the modifications are ALREADY in place, Bosses already cast twice as fast, have health regen, mana regen, etc.).

Oh Btw, I talk to you that way because you lack reading comprehension skills and obviously have a very short memory. This is what you said in your first reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhCrapLions

In fact, I'm quite certain that your just crying because you get owned all the time.

Where I come from that counts as flaming. Also, I've never played WOW so all of that WOW talk means nothing to me. I'm talking about a Diablo-like system. The only reason I mentioned WOW was from a business perspective, since we all know $$$ makes the world go around and $$$ will motivate ANET more than anything you or I say.

mikeejimbo · Apr 28, 2007, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris616263

I think not. Dervishes are still horribly overpowered while Mesmers constantly get the axe. ANet should just be honest and rename "skill balance changes" to "Mesmer nerfs".

I disagree about Dervishes being horribly overpowered. At least, you should change it to include a qualifier: "Dervishes are horribly overpowered when played well, that is, not by mikee"

That said, the renaming "skill balance changes" to "Mesmer nerfs" makes me chuckle and feel sad for our fair Mesmer friends.

OhCrapLions · Apr 28, 2007, 05:54 AM // 05:54

phoenixtech:

1)I doubt Izzy made the change all by himself, he and possibly a small staff likely pulled some user feed back for ideas and came up with the new idea.

2)This sounds really fun, I would really really love for this to happen but weapon mods like this are the same thing as having a ninth or tenth skill. Even if they were PvE/P only it would still be very, very broken unless there was some chance or handicap (-hp, -mana, -dmg, etc.) involved.

Like I said before, splitting the teams would simply slow progress between updates. Think of it as 7 pips being split between two units. One will heal faster than the other.

Oh please, I have at least 200 hours worth of PvP experience. I know very well what I'm talking about. And I doubt balancing is as hard as you make it seem since players have to put up with the same skills that opponents use in PvP as monsters do. Simply reading up on the current metagame gives even the newest player a significant advantage in succeeding. Not to mention there are like 5 well known websites dedicated to user feed back on the entire game.

Oh btw, nothing permits anybody to speak in such a manner to anyone. Though understandable to be misread as a flame, speculation does not count as a flame. If anything thats flame bait. If I said, for example: "Shut up, you penguin shit eating ass spelunker", which is a direct insult, counts as a flame.

Faer · Apr 28, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

When do "balance" and "PvE" even belong together? Don't get me wrong, I started this game with PvE and, until recently taking a break from the game entirely, still played it, but balance? Players have always been overpowered compared to the "Environment" portion of the equation. There's no balance there, nor is balance needed. Balancing PvE makes players cry and spam the many fan sites with "PLZ ANET UNNURF MY BUILD/ITAMZ".

They are already adding a pile of PvE-only skills to appease the crowd, so why should they put more effort in to add a Diablo-esque weapons system that isn't needed?

That being said, the next post (and any subsequent posts) that contains a personal attack of any sort gets deleted, and some covert stuff I won't mention because it's Classified will probably happen. You've had the chance to bicker, and now the time for such things is long gone. This isn't the "let's bitch at each other until our fingers break off" forum, kids. This is the "let's make suggestions for the game that probably won't get looked at anyway, but make us feel good about our ideas" forum. Try to keep it that way.

phoenixtech · Apr 28, 2007, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

When do "balance" and "PvE" even belong together? Don't get me wrong, I started this game with PvE and, until recently taking a break from the game entirely, still played it, but balance? Players have always been overpowered compared to the "Environment" portion of the equation. There's no balance there, nor is balance needed. Balancing PvE makes players cry and spam the many fan sites with "PLZ ANET UNNURF MY BUILD/ITAMZ".

They are already adding a pile of PvE-only skills to appease the crowd, so why should they put more effort in to add a Diablo-esque weapons system that isn't needed?

1) Balance is mainly for the PVP crowd. Having "overpowered" items in PVE is a GOOD thing. See post #1.

2) Putting in Diablo-esque weapons make the game more interesting and have better replay value which === more $$$$ for ANET and more customers for GW2. PVE only skills won't have the same amount of variety, I know I wouldn't have as much fun having 8 new lightbringer's gazes type PVE skills instead of 8 new weapon mods.

3) I rather see Diablo-esque weapons than grinding for 10000 cupcakes and have the same effects such as +100 HP, 10 mana and 25% faster run speed.

4) It wouldn't take that much more effort to implement, since they have a CUPCAKE that will do similar effects for 10 minutes. I certainly rather see diablo-esque weapon mods than CUPCAKES/Special event items that also takes effort to implement

5) To paraphrase one of the posters, for those of you that can't tell, I'm speaking from a PVP angle, although it certainly wouldn't hurt to have fun PVE once in a while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhCrapLions

2)This sounds really fun, I would really really love for this to happen but weapon mods like this are the same thing as having a ninth or tenth skill. Even if they were PvE/P only it would still be very, very broken unless there was some chance or handicap (-hp, -mana, -dmg, etc.) involved.

from post #1
Hammer of Devastation (Unique item)
Every regular attack of this hammer have a 10% chance of performing the Backbreaker skill.

VinnyRidira · Apr 28, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

This is a thread to put forward suggestions. Just because you do not like the suggestion there is no need to get personal about it. Say why you like the idea or why you don't like the idea. To use pejoratives like "you are stupid to even suggest a ridiculous idea like this." get nobody anywhere. There is generally merit in the suggestions else the person would not put them forward. I see there is some merit is separating PvE from PvP. The only time there would be true balance would be to give all characters access to all skills and professions and start every one at maximum level, but what would be the fun in a game like that. (Oops you can set up PvP like that. LOL)